Agenda and minutes

Apologies for absence were received from Councillors I.W. Davies, M.J.A. Lewis and T. Theophilus. 

The Chair welcomed Councillor J. Williams to her first meeting since being nominated as a member of the Committee.

There were no declarations of party whips.

What evidence does the Council have to support its claim that “from an educational perspective, having such a small number of pupils makes it extremely difficult for the school to deliver the breadth and depth of curricular and social experiences which pupils of this age require to fully develop”?

What evidence does the Council have to support its claim that “from an educational perspective, having such a small number of pupils makes it extremely difficult for the school to deliver the breadth and depth of curricular and social experiences which pupils of this age require to fully develop”?

Response by Councillor J.E. Williams, Chair of the E&C Scrutiny Committee 

Thank you for your question which of course refers to the ESTYN report published in December 2013 regarding the size of a school in relation to the effectiveness of teaching and learning. This report for example, notes some weaknesses such as gaps in staff specialism and the lack of time to review targets and monitor progress. What I am going to suggest now is that we as a scrutiny committee respond positively to your question by looking again at the report and having a discussion with the Challenge Advisors to see what ways these frustrations can be overcome or removed. 

When referring to capacity at Hendy the council’s proposals make no reference to the plans to build 91 new homes in Hendy approved by the County Council’s own planning committee on 15 December 2015 and which will be complete before the proposed closure of Llanedi in August 2017. The developers state: “Cwrt Y Bedw has much to offer to families with Hendy County Primary School within walking distance”. A further 40 properties are planned in Forest, which is between Llanedi and Hendy and a development of 800 houses has been approved for development in nearby Pontarddulais. On top of all this the Council’s own plans for the re-designation of Llangennech to Welsh medium proposes that those parents wanting to choose English medium education for their children should re-locate to Hendy.  All roads, it seems, lead to Hendy. Hendy’s predicted roll in September 2016 is 173 with a capacity status of 197. Does the Council really think that there will be sufficient capacity to house pupils from Llanedi in September 2017?

When referring to capacity at Hendy the council’s proposals make no reference to the plans to build 91 new homes in Hendy approved by the County Council’s own planning committee on 15 December 2015 and which will be complete before the proposed closure of Llanedi in August 2017. The developers state: “Cwrt Y Bedw has much to offer to families with Hendy County Primary School within walking distance”. A further 40 properties are planned in Forest, which is between Llanedi and Hendy and a development of 800 houses has been approved for development in nearby Pontarddulais. On top of all this the Council’s own plans for the re-designation of Llangennech to Welsh medium proposes that those parents wanting to choose English medium education for their children should re-locate to Hendy.  All roads, it seems, lead to Hendy. Hendy’s predicted roll in September 2016 is 173 with a capacity status of 197. Does the Council really think that there will be sufficient capacity to house pupils from Llanedi in September 2017?

Response by Councillor J.E. Williams, Chair of the E&C Scrutiny Committee 

Thank you for bringing the housing development to our attention which will see over 900 houses in the area. This is not a matter that can be ignored and because of this, I’m proposing a short and simple response. This is an important matter and one which we will have to give detailed attention to before any decision can be made.

The Council’s document states that pupil numbers at Llanedi are 19 and that “it is estimated that the pupil figures will remain constant with no apparent prospect of reversing this trend”. This is not the case. It is expected that there will be a minimum of 26 pupils at Llanedi in the academic year 2016/17 and 29 in the academic year 2017/18. Given that this is the case, does the Council still believe that the school should close?

The Council’s document states that pupil numbers at Llanedi are 19 and that “it is estimated that the pupil figures will remain constant with no apparent prospect of reversing this trend”. This is not the case. It is expected that there will be a minimum of 26 pupils at Llanedi in the academic year 2016/17 and 29 in the academic year 2017/18. Given that this is the case, does the Council still believe that the school should close?

Response by Councillor J.E. Williams, Chair of the E&C Scrutiny Committee 

I believe that your question Mr. Matthews is taking us in the same direction as that posed by Mrs. Elinor Williams. I accept that you disagree with that which is stated in the report to be considered in Item 6. As far as I can foresee, the number of young families that could move to live in the new proposed houses is very relevant to the future of the school. Therefore, it is very important that this is evaluated prior to any recommendations being made by ourselves. 

If pupils from Llanedi were relocated to Hendy our children would simply have less space and a higher pupil to staff ratio, housed in an older building. How does the Council think that the pupils of Ysgol Llanedi benefit from this move and how will the move provide improved and enhanced pastoral arrangements for our children? Can the Council prove to us that our children would be better off at Hendy?

If pupils from Llanedi were relocated to Hendy our children would simply have less space and a higher pupil to staff ratio, housed in an older building. How does the Council think that the pupils of Ysgol Llanedi benefit from this move and how will the move provide improved and enhanced pastoral arrangements for our children? Can the Council prove to us that our children would be better off at Hendy?

?

Response by Councillor J.E. Williams, Chair of the E&C Scrutiny Committee 

Thank you too for your question. I would like to refer you at this point to the report in Item 6 where different options are noted. Even though there are advantages and disadvantages with each of the options listed, I think there’s a need for us as a Committee to see the schools for ourselves once again, before we can make any recommendations. 

There are twelve pupils at Llanedi School that travel to school from outside the catchment area. Would the council agree that this seems to suggest that Llanedi School offers something unique that the other schools in the area do not offer?

There are twelve pupils at Llanedi School that travel to school from outside the catchment area. Would the council agree that this seems to suggest that Llanedi School offers something unique that the other schools in the area do not offer?

Response by Councillor J.E. Williams, Chair of the E&C Scrutiny Committee 

This question again raises an interesting point. One of the factors which affect the numbers of children in any school is parental choice. We know that the reasons behind these decisions are varied and I think it would be of great help to us to have more information regarding the reasons why the parents of 12 pupils think that Llanedi CP School offers an unique dimension, which doesn’t exist in other schools in the area. I would be grateful to you if you could encourage these parents to send us their comments.

Having recently moved to Llanedi village we have been particularly impressed by the progress our daughter has made in the school in a short period of time compared to her previous school where she was in a class of 34 pupils and was ‘coasting’ with average achievements but not challenged in any way. How does Carmarthenshire County Council propose that the development of our children is monitored – not only against the key stage framework but also to compare progress and attainment before and after the proposed closure to ensure that our children’s development has not deteriorated/been impaired?

Having recently moved to Llanedi village we have been particularly impressed by the progress our daughter has made in the school in a short period of time compared to her previous school where she was in a class of 34 pupils and was ‘coasting’ with average achievements but not challenged in any way. How does Carmarthenshire County Council propose that the development of our children is monitored – not only against the key stage framework but also to compare progress and attainment before and after the proposed closure to ensure that our children’s development has not deteriorated/been impaired?

Response by Councillor J.E. Williams, Chair of the E&C Scrutiny Committee 

Before I answer your question, I would like to say how happy I am to hear that your daughter is making excellent progress and it is clear that she is happy in the school. I can assure you that teaching standards and pupil achievement is of great interest to this Committee and that we monitor the development and performance of schools on a regular basis. Officers collect and summarise learner outcomes on a regular and systematic basis to ensure that standards are monitored and improved continually across all core subjects. This would continue prior to and following any proposed closure of any school in order to ensure that learner outcomes are regularly monitored and not effected by moving school. The findings emanating from the work of the Challenge Advisors are presented to us on a regular basis and are shared with school governing bodies as well. In addition, we undertake school visits which give us an opportunity to discuss performance and standards directly with head teachers. In November 2014, the Council also established a School Improvement Panel which is a means of giving us an overview of individual schools’ achievements.

The facilities at Hendy are judged to be in the same condition as those in Llanedi. We would argue that the conditions in Hendy are worse and therefore moving pupils from Llanedi to Hendy will not mean that our children have better facilities. What plans does the Council have to improve the school buildings and facilities at Hendy school in order to enhance opportunities for learning? What is the timescale for any improvement and how much money has been allocated for this purpose in next year’s budget?

The facilities at Hendy are judged to be in the same condition as those in Llanedi. We would argue that the conditions in Hendy are worse and therefore moving pupils from Llanedi to Hendy will not mean that our children have better facilities. What plans does the Council have to improve the school buildings and facilities at Hendy school in order to enhance opportunities for learning? What is the timescale for any improvement and how much money has been allocated for this purpose in next year’s budget?

Response by Councillor J.E. Williams, Chair of the E&C Scrutiny Committee

Your concerns are extremely valid. I recall that members of this Committee did visit Hendy CP School in October 2011 and following this visit, I know that a significant amount of improvement and refurbishment work was carried out. However, your concern suggests strongly to me that organising another visit would be of benefit to us as a Committee.   

The Chair thanked the representatives of the Friends of Llanedi School for their questions and contribution to the meeting.

The Committee was provided with a list of forthcoming items to be considered at its next meeting scheduled for 14th April 2016. 

UNANIMOUSLY RESOLVED that the items to be considered at the next scheduled meeting on Thursday 14th April 2016, be noted.

Councillor D.J.R. Bartlett had earlier declared a personal interest in this item and left the meeting during its consideration and determination.

Mrs. V. Kenny had earlier declared a personal interest in this item and left the meeting during its consideration and determination.

The Committee considered a proposal to discontinue Llanedi CP School and initiate formal consultation on the proposal during the Summer Term 2016. It was informed that should a decision to consult be approved by the Executive Board, this would be followed by the submission of a report to both the Education & Children Scrutiny Committee and the Executive Board at the end of the statutory consultation period.

Members were informed that the Authority had a legal responsibility to review the number and type of schools it had in an area and whether or not it was making the best use of resources and facilities to deliver the opportunities that children deserved. In recent years Llanedi Primary School has seen a steady decline in pupil numbers from 33 pupils on roll in January 2010 to 18 pupils on roll in January 2015 resulting in 51% surplus places at the school. Following the departure of the last permanent head teacher in December 2013, the school had faced challenges and uncertainty with regard to fulfilling the senior leadership position.

Members noted that it was the Education & Children Department’s view that the current arrangements did not represent a sound, stable educational model or the best use of resources. With no prospect of there being a significant increase in pupil numbers for the foreseeable future and the on-going challenges the school faced to secure permanent senior leadership, it was not possible to sustain current arrangements. In addition, the Department considered that from an educational perspective, having such a small number of pupils made it extremely difficult for the school to deliver the breadth and depth of curricular and social experiences which pupils of this age required to fully develop.

The following comments were made during consideration of the report:

It was suggested that there were issues contained within the report as well as those raised by the Friends of the School, which would make it difficult for the Committee to make any recommendations to the Executive Board, without further information being presented. Reference was made to the new housing estates in the area as well as the current language category of Hendy School. If parents moving into the new homes wanted a Welsh-Medium education, the Hendy school would not offer this and the situation would be contrary to the Council’s own language policy. It was felt that these issues in themselves as well as the use of the school’s facilities by the community, needed further consideration. 

Reference was made to the Committee’s school visit programme and it was suggested that schools under threat of closure should be visited in the future. It was also pointed out that the Committee had last visited Llanedi and Hendy schools 4-5 years previously and it was proposed  ...  view the full minutes text for item 6.

Councillor P. Hughes-Griffiths had earlier declared a personal interest in this item and left the meeting during its consideration and determination.

Councillor G.O. Jones (Executive Board Member for Education & Children) had earlier declared a personal interest in this item and left the meeting during its consideration and determination.

The Committee considered a proposal to discontinue Bancffosfelen CP School and initiate formal consultation on the proposal during the Summer Term 2016. It was informed that should a decision to consult be approved by the Executive Board, this would be followed by the submission of a report to both the Education & Children Scrutiny Committee and the Executive Board at the end of the statutory consultation period.

Members were informed that the Authority had a legal responsibility to review the number and type of schools it had in an area and whether or not it was making the best use of resources and facilities to deliver the opportunities that children deserved. In recent years Bancffosfelen Primary School has seen a steady decline in pupil numbers from 48 pupils on roll in January 2011, to 35 pupils on roll in January 2016, resulting in 64% surplus places at the school. Since the departure of the head teacher at Easter 2014, there had not been a permanent head teacher employed at the school although there was an informal arrangement between the Governing Bodies of Pontyberem and Bancffosfelen for part time cover (0.2) to be provided by the Head Teacher of Pontyberem CP School.

Members noted that it was the Education & Children Department’s view that the current arrangements did not represent a sound, stable educational model or the best use of resources. In addition, the Department considered that from an educational perspective, having such a small number of pupils made it extremely difficult for the school to deliver the breadth and depth of curricular and social experiences which pupils of this age required to fully develop.

The Committee also noted that the item included a response to the proposal from the Governing Body of Bancffosfelen in the form of a bilingual report which had been included for members’ consideration.

The School Modernisation Manager informed the Committee that to date, 23 letters objecting to the proposed closure of the school had been received. The Director of Education & Children also confirmed that he had received the petition presented by Friends of the School, prior to the commencement of the meeting. 

The following comments were made during consideration of the report:

It was proposed that as with the situation in Llanedi, the Committee undertake visits to Bancffosfelen and Pontyberem Schools prior to making any recommendations to the Executive Board. The Committee agreed to the proposals.

It was suggested that should the Council decide to close the school, it should consider allocating the catchment to other neighbouring schools, if closer for pupils. In light of this, it was also suggested that the Committee visit Ysgol Y Fro in Llangyndeyrn as well as Llanddarog School, as both were in the  ...  view the full minutes text for item 7.

The Committee considered a proposal to discontinue Llanmiloe Primary, Tremoilet Voluntary Controlled and Laugharne Voluntary Controlled Primary (VCP) Schools and create a new area school. If approved by the Executive Board, formal consultation on the proposal would be initiated during the Summer Term 2016. The Committee was informed that should a decision to consult be approved by the Executive Board, this would be followed by the submission of a report to both the Education & Children Scrutiny Committee and the Executive Board at the end of the statutory consultation period.

Members were informed that the Authority had a legal responsibility to review the number and type of schools it had in an area and whether or not it was making the best use of resources and facilities to deliver the opportunities that children deserved. In recent years, rural schools such as Tremoilet, Llanmiloe and Laugharne primary schools had witnessed a decrease in pupil numbers and based on current data available, no significant change in this trend was anticipated. Declining pupil numbers across the schools would cause further educational and financial challenges, in particular, maintaining appropriate pupil teacher staffing ratios to provide an effective curriculum for all learners. A range of ‘soft federation’ arrangements had existed between the three schools over a period of time and had enabled and highlighted the benefits of greater levels of collaboration between schools. However, they had also highlighted the challenges and fragility of such models and these findings had reinforced the need for a more formalised approach and sustainable resolution to serve the longer term educational needs of this area. Head teacher recruitment was also a challenge for small schools as Llanmiloe and Tremoilet.

Members noted that it was the Education & Children Department’s view that the current arrangements did not represent a sound, stable educational model or the best use of resources. In addition, the Department considered that with no prospect of there being a significant increase in pupil numbers in the area for the foreseeable future, coupled with on-going challenges two of the schools faced to secure permanent senior leadership, it was not viable to sustain current arrangements.

The Committee also noted that following a review of Carmarthenshire’s Early Years Provision, it had been identified that the Tremoilet / Llanmiloe and Laugharne geographical area was currently unable to offer the Foundation Phase Early Years Learning Entitlement. However, if the proposal was approved, this provision would be available to children in this area.

The following issues were discussed during consideration of the report:

The Committee’s Church in Wales’ representative stated that the local diocese was concerned about the serious challenges faced by the schools in question and was of the view that stability in the area was needed and that the proposal was to be welcomed. 

It was suggested that it was essential that children were provided with the best start to their education and the proposal to offer the Foundation Phase Early Years Learning entitlement should also be welcomed.

Clarification was sought as to who  ...  view the full minutes text for item 8.

The Committee considered the Revenue and Capital Budget Monitoring Reports relating to the 2015/16 financial year as at 31st December 2015 for the Education & Children Department. It was advised that this latest revenue budget forecast showed a significant overspend of £1,269,000 for the year end.

The following issues were raised during consideration of the report:

Concern was expressed at on-going costs relating to school-based early voluntary retirement (EVR) and redundancies (£1,072,000) and it was asked whether the Department had any reserves to cover this. The Director of Education & Children expressed disappointment at the overspend and informed the Committee that this current situation would wipe out its reserves. He also noted that the Department was now seeing the budgetary pressures coming to bear on services. It was a serious challenge for officers and some proposals were being developed to try and alleviate the pressures.

UNANIMOUSLY RESOLVED that the report be received.

The Committee considered a National Categorisation Summary Report for Carmarthenshire Schools in 2016. The information outlined within the report highlighted the current position of the County’s schools as well as areas for improvement. Overall, the Committee noted that the proportion of schools placed in a Green or Yellow category across Carmarthenshire, was 8% higher as compared to 2014/15, with well over three quarters (77%) of schools now in a Green or Yellow category. The proportion of Green schools in Carmarthenshire had increased by 2% as compared to 2014/15 with 26 (23%) of schools categorised as Amber but no schools categorised as Red. The Committee was informed that the greatest improvement in 2015/16 had been the number of schools moving from the Amber to the Yellow category.

The following issues were raised during consideration of the report:

In response to a question on schools’ own self-evaluation, the Chief Education Officer acknowledged that schools were improving in this regard and following a new directive from the Welsh Assembly, a seminar had been held with head teachers to share and discuss best-practice. Officers were pleased to see more consistency across schools and head teachers communicating with each other on this issue. The Head of School Effectiveness also informed the Committee that a seminar for school governors was planned for the 15th March 2016 with specific focus on creating and implementing an effective self-assessment.

Concern was expressed that governors in general were not aware of the categorisation process and how it worked. It was asked whether a specific governor should have responsibility for the school’s categorisation and that all governors should get to discuss this on a regular basis. The Head of School Effectiveness acknowledged the comments and informed the Committee that a great deal of work was being done as the national agenda required more training for governors. He added that every term, head teachers should be presenting governors with the categorisation information and the different steps undertaken to assign schools to different categories, as well as being made aware of the visits by ERW officers each term. He suggested that categorisation should be a regular item on governor meeting agendas.

Reference was made to the use of experienced head teachers as ‘challenge advisors’ and it was asked whether this process was sustainable in such difficult financial conditions, especially as this method placed additional burdens on the ‘sending school’ and on the head teacher’s work load. The Head of School Effectiveness reassured the Committee that the Authority and ERW would still require a ‘core-team’ and that it was about getting a balance. The use of experienced head teachers ensured the sharing of good practice, not only benefiting the school being visited but also for the challenge advisor too. He informed the Committee that the Authority was in the process of revising the school effectiveness service and that it was hoped that it would use less head teachers in the future. He reassured the Committee that the governing body of any ‘sending school’ was  ...  view the full minutes text for item 10.

The Committee considered the observations received following the consultation undertaken in relation to changing the age range of Betws CP School from 4-11 to 3-11. It was informed that following the end of the Statutory Notice period, no objections were received by stakeholders. The Committee was also informed that this, as well as the other proposals for changes to school age ranges, were being considered under the former school organisation decision making and determination process, as the proposals had been commenced prior to the County Council confirming the new process in autumn 2015.

The Committee UNANIMOUSLY RESOLVED that:

11.1    The report be received.

11.2    It be recommended to the Executive Board that it approve the publication of a statutory notice to implement the proposal to change the age range of Betws Primary School from 4-11 to 3-11.

The Committee considered the observations received following the consultation undertaken in relation to changing the age range of Pembrey CP School from 4-11 to 3-11. It was informed that following the end of the Statutory Notice period, no objections were received by stakeholders.

The Committee UNANIMOUSLY RESOLVED that:

12.1    The report be received.

12.2    It be recommended to the Executive Board that it approve the publication of a statutory notice to implement the proposal to change the age range of Pembrey Primary School from 4-11 to 3-11.

The Committee considered the observations received following the consultation undertaken in relation to changing the age range of Pwll CP School from 4-11 to 3-11. It was informed that following the end of the Statutory Notice period, no objections were received by stakeholders.

The Committee UNANIMOUSLY RESOLVED that:

13.1    The report be received.

13.2    It be recommended to the Executive Board that it approve the publication of a statutory notice to implement the proposal to change the age range of Pwll Primary School from 4-11 to 3-11.

The Committee considered the observations received following the consultation undertaken in relation to changing the age range of Bynea CP School from 4-11 to 3-11. It was informed that following the end of the Statutory Notice period, no objections were received by stakeholders.

In response to a question on the number of the County’s schools with a 3-11 age range, the Director of Education & Children informed the Committee that it was approximately 40%. He reminded the Committee that the four schools under consideration at the meeting were within Flying Start areas and this was to ensure the seamless transition from early years into formal education. The Flying Start areas were geographically targeted and therefore the associated funding could not be re-distributed to other areas. 

The Committee UNANIMOUSLY RESOLVED that:

14.1    The report be received.

14.2    It be recommended to the Executive Board that it approve the publication of a statutory notice to implement the proposal to change the age range of Bynea Primary School from 4-11 to 3-11.

The Committee considered a report detailing progress in relation to actions, requests or referrals emerging from previous scrutiny meetings.

UNANIMOUSLY RESOLVED that the report be noted.

UNANIMOUSLY RESOLVED that the minutes of the meeting held on Thursday 21st January 2016, be signed as a correct record.