Agenda and draft minutes

Apologies for absence were received from Councillors S. Allen and C.A. Davies.

• The Chair referred to the array of events he, and his consort, had attended since the last meeting of the Council, including the annual Royal Naval Dinner in Llanelli, the launch of the Poppy Appeal in Carmarthen, Burry Port Opera annual concert, Saint Luke’s service with the Bishop of St Davids in Myddfai, the Polish War Memorial service and unveiling of a commemorative plaque at Llanelli Town Hall and the Remembrance Sunday service and wreath laying in Carmarthen.

• The Chair reflected upon his attendance at Carmarthen Leisure Centre to welcome and celebrate World Champion Olympians Emma Finucane and Jessica Roberts where hundreds and hundreds of school pupils lined up to cheer the procession to nearby Queen Elizabeth High School. 

• The Chair stated that he would be taking part in the Walrus Dip at Cefn Sidan Beach on Boxing Day to raise money for two charities, LATCH and Prostate Cymru.

• The Chair outlined the Council’s support for the White Ribbon Day to be held on the 25th November 2024 raising awareness of domestic abuse and local services available to help victims and survivors.

• The Chair referred to an invitation extended by Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Service for elected members to attend Carmarthen Velodrome at 9.45am on Friday 15 November to support Firefighter Georgina Gilbert in her attempt to run a marathon in full firefighting kit and breathing apparatus. Her colleague, Firefighter Rebecca Openshaw-Rowe from Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Service, will also start running her marathon in Antarctica.  The Chair directed members to Councillors’ newsletter for further information.

·       The Cabinet Member for Resources appraised Council of the severe national and council financial position whereby the cross-party Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) estimated that councils in Wales are facing a budget gap of over half a billion pounds next year, together with an in-year overspend of almost a quarter of a billion. These overspends could, in the main, be attributable to the rising cost and demand for Social Care for children and older adults, and also within the education sector whereby the Additional Learning Needs (ALN) provision was rapidly reducing school reserves. The forecast for this year is an overspend of almost £9m in council departments and over £10m in schools, making a total of over £19m. 

The Cabinet Member for Resources reported that a potential budget shortfall in the region of £20m was estimated for 2025-26.  Reference was made to the reports of Welsh Government receiving an extra £1.7bn over 2 years, of which £500m would be allocated to the pay settlements already agreed for public sector workers.  In an update to the Council, the Cabinet Member for Resources explained that the Welsh Government Secretary for Finance had reported that there would be £200m left for revenue this year and £733m next year.  A total of £253m would be allocated for capital, which was not considered sufficient in light of the alarming increase in general construction inflation since the pandemic, which had adversely impacted the Authority’s Modernising in Education (MEP) programme for Carmarthenshire.

The Cabinet Member for Resources reported that the National Insurance rate and thresholds could cost the council around £10m.  A total of £5bn had been set aside by the Treasury to mitigate the impact on the public sector, however, to date, no information had been released as to how the monies would be shared, or how far any allowance would go towards bridging the Council’s £10m gap.

In closing, members were reminded that Welsh Government would be setting its draft budget on 10^th December 2024, with the final settlement on the 25^th February 2025 – the day before the Council’s budget setting.  Accordingly, members were encouraged to participate in the Council’s budget setting process, by way of seminars, scrutiny and Council consultation.

• The Deputy Leader and Cabinet Member for Homes raised awareness to this year’s Christmas Toy Box Appeal and highlighted that many children and families would be impacted upon by the rising costs of living and therefore encouraged Members to contribute to the Appeal.  It was noted that a total of 9,300 Christmas gifts had been given to 1,550 children within the county as part of the 2023 appeal, which would not have been possible without the generous contributions and support provided by individuals, organisations, churches and chapels.  In closing, the Deputy Leader and Cabinet Member for Homes conveyed her thanks to the team within the education department for their sterling efforts in organising the distribution of the gifts.

RESOLVED that the minutes of the meeting of Council held on the 9^th October 2024 be signed as a correct record.

RESOLVED that the report of the meeting of Cabinet held on the 30^th September, 2024 be received.

RESOLVED that the report of the meeting of Cabinet held on the 14^th October, 2024 be received.

‘As with all local authorities in Wales, communities across Carmarthenshire experience poverty and deprivation. This council is doing its utmost within its powers and competencies to alleviate and address poverty and deprivation through a number of strategies and initiatives.

This council notes that all of the available evidence shows that rural and urban poverty differ in characteristics, and that the poverty and deprivation that exists in rural areas can often be hidden or masked. This is not always revealed by conventional indicators or ways of measuring poverty.

This council recognises that residents living in rural areas often encounter difficulties in accessing public services and contend with a ‘rural premium’ – including higher costs, lower wages and poorer access to services – that has a compounding effect on the hardship faced by impacted individuals and families in rural areas.

This council calls on the Welsh Government

1. to establish a statutory duty for the Welsh Government to rural-proof any and all policies, programmes and strategies, and their implementation, to ensure relevant adjustments in consideration of their impact on rural residents, and 

2. to collaborate with experts to develop and set new and specific targets and criteria to reduce rural poverty and deprivation.’

[Notes:

·       Councillors D. Jones, E.G. Thomas, T. Higgins, M. Thomas, J. Tremlett, D. Nicholas, E. Skinner, P. M. Hughes, H. B. Shepardson and F. Walters, having earlier declared interests in this matter, left the meeting during its consideration and voting thereof.

·       Councillors H. Jones, M. James, J. M. Charles, R. Sparks, M.J.A. Lewis, A. Davies, B.D.J. Phillips, B. Davies, C.A. Jones, K. V. Broom, B. W. Jones, Ll. M. Davies, D. E. Williams, L.D. Evans, H.A.L Evans, K. Davies, J. K. Howell, A. Vaughan-Owen, T.A.J. Davies, N. Lewis, A. Evans, W. T. Evans, G. Thomas, D. Thomas, H.L. Davies, E.M.J.G. Schiavone and L. Davies had earlier declared interests in this meeting.  However, having received dispensation to speak, make written representations and vote on this item, remained in the meeting during its consideration and voting thereof.

·       Councillors R. Evans and S.L. Davies, having earlier declared interests in this item, remained in the meeting during its consideration but left prior to the voting thereof. ]

The proposer and seconder of the notice of motion, as set out the Council Summons, confirmed that they were happy to accept the amendment as submitted, and agreed that the substantive motion be put forward for consideration.

Accordingly, Council considered the following Notice of Motion:-

‘As with all local authorities in Wales, communities across Carmarthenshire experience poverty and deprivation. This council is doing its utmost within its powers and competencies to alleviate and address poverty and deprivation through a number of strategies and initiatives.

This council notes that all of the available evidence shows that rural and urban poverty differ in characteristics, and that the poverty and deprivation that exists in rural areas can often be hidden or masked. This is not always revealed by conventional indicators or ways of measuring poverty.

This council recognises that residents living in rural areas often encounter difficulties in accessing public services and contend with a ‘rural premium’ – including higher costs, lower wages and poorer access to services – that has a compounding effect on the hardship faced by impacted individuals and families in rural areas.

This council calls on the Welsh Government

1. to establish a statutory duty for the Welsh Government to rural-proof any and all policies, programmes and strategies, and their implementation, to ensure relevant adjustments in consideration of their impact on rural residents, without having an adverse impact on urban residents; and

2. to collaborate with experts to develop and set new and specific targets and criteria to reduce rural poverty and deprivation.’

The motion was duly seconded.

The proposers and seconder of the Motion were afforded the opportunity of speaking in support thereof and outlined the reasons for its submission.

A number of statements were made in support of the substantive motion.

Council was advised that if the motion was supported it would be referred to the Cabinet.

RESOLVED that the Motion be supported and referred to the Cabinet.

‘We ask Carmarthenshire County Council to support the proposal for the Crown Estate assets to be devolved to the people of Wales, so that the profits can be used to invest in the economy and communities of Wales.

A poll in 2023 showed that 75% of the population of Wales were in favour of taking control of the assets of the Crown estate rather than the profits going to the Treasury and the Crown.

Local Authorities are under huge financial pressure and placing the Crown Estate in the hands of Wales would be a significant step to address the years of lack of investment in our Local Government.

We are calling on the Welsh Government to ask the Westminster Government to devolve the assets and revenue of the Crown Estates as a matter of , as was done in Scotland in 2017.

We demand that Wales is treated fairly and accepts management of the Crown Estate lands for the benefit of the people of Wales.’

Council considered the following Notice of Motion submitted by Councillors Betsan Jones and Meinir James:-

‘We ask Carmarthenshire County Council to support the proposal for the Crown Estate assets to be devolved to the people of Wales, so that the profits can be used to invest in the economy and communities of Wales.

A poll in 2023 showed that 75% of the population of Wales were in favour of taking control of the assets of the Crown estate rather than the profits going to the Treasury and the Crown.

Local Authorities are under huge financial pressure and placing the Crown Estate in the hands of Wales would be a significant step to address the years of lack of investment in our Local Government.

We are calling on the Welsh Government to ask the Westminster Government to devolve the assets and revenue of the Crown Estates as a matter of , as was done in Scotland in 2017.

We demand that Wales is treated fairly and accepts management of the Crown Estate lands for the benefit of the people of Wales.’

The motion was duly seconded.

The proposers and seconder of the Motion were afforded the opportunity of speaking in support thereof and outlined the reasons for its submission, as set out in the Motion.

A number of representations were made in support of the Motion and the Monitoring Officer provided clarification on accuracy of the motion wording.

Council was advised that if the motion was supported it would be referred to the Cabinet.

UNANIMOUSLY RESOLVED that the Motion be supported and referred to the Cabinet.

The Chair advised that no public questions had been received.

‘Can the Cabinet Member indicate whether he feels arrangements currently in place provide for fair and timely allocation of ‘spare seats’ on Carmarthenshire County Council School Transport for pupils that need them?’

[Note: Councillor S. L. Davies had earlier declared an interest in this item and was not present in the meeting at this point.]

Question by Councillor Palfreman:

‘Can the Cabinet Member indicate whether he feels arrangements currently in place provide for fair and timely allocation of ‘spare seats’ on Carmarthenshire County Council School Transport for pupils that need them?’

Response by Councillor Thomas, Cabinet Member for Transport, Waste and Infrastructure Services:

‘Welsh Government sets the legislation on school transport provision by means of the “Learner Travel (Wales) Measure”.  If a learner does not meet the eligibility criteria outlined in the Measures, Local Authorities are not required to provide free transport, and the legal duty to ensure attendance of a child at school rests with the parent or guardian.

We have powers to offer additional discretionary transport and do so, for example for Post 16 learners to college and schools, and by means of “spare seats”, where these are available, for those not entitled to free transport under the walking distances defined.

This year, the "spare seat" policy has provided transport for 252 learners whose travel to and from school would otherwise be for the parents/guardians to arrange and fund.  This year’s spare seat passes were issued on 2nd October to allow travel to commence on 7th October. The closing date for applications was 27th September and we worked extremely quickly to make the seats available as soon as possible.

We are asked each year whether we can issue the spare seats in time for the new academic year, however this would be extremely difficult to achieve due to the volume of transport applications and other changes which take place during August and September, particularly from late August when the GCSE results are announced.

Over 50% of school and college applications are made during August and September, and 25% of this year’s appeals were heard during these months. In addition, 35% of the 800 current sixth form learners receiving school transport only confirmed their requirement to travel during August and September.

During this period, we also need to check and update pupil records, to ensure that we are not reserving seats for those who have moved or left school without informing us, and consequently need to review the allocation of vehicles across the network in order to maximise the number of spare seats available. This year we have been able to make an additional 73 spare seats available, which is 29% of the total of seats awarded.

Supplementary question by Councillor Palfreman:

‘Thank you to the Cabinet Member for his helpful information, but does he acknowledge that requiring parents who were awarded seats in previous years, and whose circumstances haven’t changed, to wait until October to have confirmation of continued space for the following year results in unnecessary inconvenience and uncertainty.  Will he agree to a further review of current processes to enable these decisions to be made by the beginning of the school year, meaning that parents don’t have  ...  view the full minutes text for item 9.1

‘As the provision for high dependency needs children at Heol Goffa is still under review….have you taken into account that should a new school be recommended….this administration has ring fenced at least the  capital sum  from Carmarthenshire County Council coffers that will be needed to provide a school for even the current 124 children being educated in this severely overcrowded facility, let alone the 142 requiring places with more in the pipeline.’

[Notes:

·       Councillor L.D. Evans, having earlier declared an interest in this matter, left the meeting during its consideration.

·       Councillors R. James and A. Leyshon had earlier declared an interest in this item and were not present in the meeting at this point.]

Question by Councillor Cundy:

‘As the provision for high dependency needs children at Heol Goffa is still under review….have you taken into account that should a new school be recommended….this administration has ring fenced at least the  capital sum  from Carmarthenshire County Council coffers that will be needed to provide a school for even the current 124 children being educated in this severely overcrowded facility, let alone the 142 requiring places with more in the pipeline.’

Response by Councillor Davies, Cabinet Member for Education and Welsh Language:

‘In a way Derek you have answered your own question because you have said: 'As provision for children and additional learning needs in Heol Goffa is still under review'. Your words. Your words I'm not prepared to predict the outcome of the review. That would be a foolish thing to do.  David Davies is still looking into this and I'm not willing to presume his finding or recommendations. I will respond to it all at the appropriate time, and in an appropriate way. It is impossible to prepare for funding provision which has not yet been fully reviewed. But I can assure you that all factors will be considered.  I want to emphasise and want to underline these next few words: providing the best possible Education for children with Additional Learning Needs is extremely important to me personally and to the Cabinet as a whole. We have committed to doing our best for our children regardless of the different messages that is being spread. Thank you’

Supplementary question by Councillor Cundy:

‘If the review comes back and we do need a new school, are we going to have the funds left for it? And I hope that it hasn’t been allocated elsewhere as we did have the money ready a few months ago. Thank you’

Response by Councillor Davies, Cabinet Member for Education and Welsh Language:

‘Over the next few weeks, I expect to see a report on David Davies’ work and what he has done over the last few months.  I will be reading it very carefully.  I personally, and the Cabinet, will be looking at everything and then, and only then, we will be in a position to share more information with you.  It’s unwise to do that before receiving the report. Thank you.’

‘It has been reported that you have authorised as a council £500,000 on making repairs to Heol Goffa over the summer school holidays without providing any of the desperately needed extra places, as well as leaving the roof still leaking. Do you think that this was really value for money?’

[Notes:

·       Councillor L.D. Evans, having earlier declared an interest in this matter, left the meeting during its consideration.

·       Councillors R. James and A. Leyshon had earlier declared an interest in this item and were not present in the meeting at this point.]

Question by Councillor Cundy:

‘It has been reported that you have authorised as a council £500,000 on making repairs to Heol Goffa over the summer school holidays without providing any of the desperately needed extra places, as well as leaving the roof still leaking. Do you think that this was really value for money?’

Response by Councillor Davies, Cabinet Member for Education and Welsh Language:

‘Value for money?  That was the question.  Value for money - of course it is.  And that is the simple answer to your question.  We couldn’t close our eyes to the situation in Heol Goffa.  We have spent wisely and carefully.  The roof was leaking, and we did repairs to that, but I do understand that more work needs to be done.  It’s a situation that was not brought to our attention at the beginning, but we are now aware and we know what needs to be done; and that work is taking place.  I’ve had assurance from the Education department that these repairs to the roof, as a whole, will happen as soon as possible.

I have to repeat this Councillors, and I want to emphasise this –that providing the best possible education for children with additional learning needs is important to me and to the Cabinet – to all of us. I am looking forward, and I am keen to see the findings of the report that is being prepared.’

Supplementary question by Councillor Cundy: There was no supplementary question.

‘Since 2017 under your administration this council has spent £1, 277,800 pounds on design and feasibility studies of a new school to replace Heol Goffa…..if the review of the Heol Goffa provision does not recommend a new school will this money be lost?’

[Notes:

·       Councillor L.D. Evans, having earlier declared an interest in this matter, left the meeting during its consideration.

·       Councillors R. James and A. Leyshon had earlier declared an interest in this item and were not present in the meeting at this point.]

Question by Councillor Cundy:

‘Since 2017 under your administration this council has spent £1,277,800 pounds on design and feasibility studies of a new school to replace Heol Goffa…..if the review of the Heol Goffa provision does not recommend a new school will this money be lost?’

Response by Councillor Davies, Cabinet Member for Education and Welsh Language:

‘It is important to remember, all of us need to remember, that designing provision that we have in our centres across the county and in Heol Goffa School is specialist work and there is a cost relating to that. Yes, I do confirm we spent over £1.2 million on designing and on a feasibility study. Expenditure which will, I’m sure, will bring many benefits. It is vitally important that we prepare and plan carefully, developing and improving the service is really important.  And remember that this spend has, as you mentioned taken place over many years.

Eventually the construction costs became too high. Beyond all expectations. And we have to remember, and we were reminded of this earlier, that construction costs in general have increased significantly over the last few years. Also remember that the tender price received for the construction of a new special school, a factor which is beyond our control, meant that we were unable to move forward with the construction of the new special school that was planned originally. We did apply formally to the Welsh Government to ask them to fund this increase, and fund the building costs in full, however they were not in a position to do so. The situation could have been different if we had received a positive response from the Welsh Government.’

Supplementary question by Councillor Cundy:

‘We are being asked to look at the budget..  Are we making sure that we are actually spending our Education budget absolutely spot on?’

Response by Councillor Davies, Cabinet Member for Education and Welsh Language:

‘I can assure you that the money that will be allocated to Education will be well, well spent.  The Modernising in Education Programme (MEP) has had a dreadful hit, but we will look at every penny we have. And remember, our schools are currently in deficit – many of them, so we will be looking wisely; we have a new Director – can I welcome him to our first meeting today.  I will be working closely with him and we will look at those budgets and I can assure you, because we will all be involved in those budgetary plans - we will spend that money wisely.’

The Chair stated that the minutes outlined on the agenda under 10.1 – 10.7 were available for information on the Council website.